Howdy,

I fly a Cirrus SR22, an all-electric plane. It has dual-redundant power
busses, which makes total electrical failure unlikely, but if it does
happen in IMC it can really ruin your day, so I'm thinking about a
backup plan. Obviously a portable GPS and Comm unit are first on the
priority list, but I'd also like to get a portable AI, since it's really
hard to keep the wings level with just a GPS. Most of the portable AIs
seem to be part of a complete EFB solution about which I know very
little, but as long as I'm heading in that direction anyway I thought
I'd ask if anyone had any experience or recommendations in this
direction. I want to optimize for portability first. This is just a
backup plan, so I don't want to shlep around a lot of extra weight that
I'm likely never going to use. Beyond that I'm curious about two
things: 1) what's the cheapest portable AI solution out there, and 2)
what can I get that's still portable if price is no object. XM weather?
Portable stormscope? Electronic approach plates? The kitchen sink? (I
suppose a portable autopilot is too much to ask :-)

Thanks,
rg

On 2005-03-27, Ron Garret > wrote:
> backup plan. Obviously a portable GPS and Comm unit are first on the
> priority list, but I'd also like to get a portable AI, since it's really
> hard to keep the wings level with just a GPS.

I built a solid state turn coordinator with LED display that would run
for about 24 hours on a pair of alkaline batteries. I never got around
to moving it off the breadboard and into a nice package. There is a
company that sells something I suspect is very similar. It's about
the size of a deck of cards with row of LEDs on one edge, but of course
now I can't find the name of it.

Anyway, in concert with a portable GPS or even just a magnetic compass
a solid state turn coordinator could keep you going under some pretty
dire circumstances.

--
Ben Jackson
>
http://www.ben.com/

In article >,
Ben Jackson > wrote:

> On 2005-03-27, Ron Garret > wrote:
> > backup plan. Obviously a portable GPS and Comm unit are first on the
> > priority list, but I'd also like to get a portable AI, since it's really
> > hard to keep the wings level with just a GPS.
>
> I built a solid state turn coordinator with LED display that would run
> for about 24 hours on a pair of alkaline batteries. I never got around
> to moving it off the breadboard and into a nice package. There is a
> company that sells something I suspect is very similar. It's about
> the size of a deck of cards with row of LEDs on one edge, but of course
> now I can't find the name of it.

This perhaps?

http://www.pcflightsystems.com/egyro.html

It's $500. Is that a reasonable price?

rg

Garmin 296 with a bag full of batteries? Or, with a long-duration power
supply?

Second engine?

Trade the bird in for a Citation X and a professional crew?

Ron Garret wrote:

> Howdy,
>
> I fly a Cirrus SR22, an all-electric plane. It has dual-redundant power
> busses, which makes total electrical failure unlikely, but if it does
> happen in IMC it can really ruin your day, so I'm thinking about a
> backup plan. Obviously a portable GPS and Comm unit are first on the
> priority list, but I'd also like to get a portable AI, since it's really
> hard to keep the wings level with just a GPS. Most of the portable AIs
> seem to be part of a complete EFB solution about which I know very
> little, but as long as I'm heading in that direction anyway I thought
> I'd ask if anyone had any experience or recommendations in this
> direction. I want to optimize for portability first. This is just a
> backup plan, so I don't want to shlep around a lot of extra weight that
> I'm likely never going to use. Beyond that I'm curious about two
> things: 1) what's the cheapest portable AI solution out there, and 2)
> what can I get that's still portable if price is no object. XM weather?
> Portable stormscope? Electronic approach plates? The kitchen sink? (I
> suppose a portable autopilot is too much to ask :-)
>
> Thanks,
> rg

> 1) what's the cheapest portable AI solution out there, and 2)
> what can I get that's still portable if price is no object. XM
weather?
> Portable stormscope? Electronic approach plates? The kitchen sink?
(I
> suppose a portable autopilot is too much to ask :-)
>
> Thanks,
> rg

A couple of thoughts:

1. If it's not on line when your primary attitude indicators/turn
coordinators fail in IMC, you'll probably die while digging through
your flight bag looking for it,
2. Control Vision makes AnyWhereMap moving map software for Pocket PC
PDA's and has an AI option available for it. This takes care of the
portable GPS, too. About $2200 complete with nice PDA.
http://www.anywheremap.com/detail.aspx?ID=111
3. Mid Contintent makes an electric AI that has onboard battery backup
good for an hour of use from the time aircraft power is lost. (about
$3900)
http://www.mcico.com/pdf/4300.pdf

David

www.pcflightsystems.com
PC EFIS and Nav GPS software. Runs on a Pocket PC
I have had them for a year and like the feeling of security.
Michelle

Ron Garret wrote:

>Howdy,
>
>I fly a Cirrus SR22, an all-electric plane. It has dual-redundant power
>busses, which makes total electrical failure unlikely, but if it does
>happen in IMC it can really ruin your day, so I'm thinking about a
>backup plan. Obviously a portable GPS and Comm unit are first on the
>priority list, but I'd also like to get a portable AI, since it's really
>hard to keep the wings level with just a GPS. Most of the portable AIs
>seem to be part of a complete EFB solution about which I know very
>little, but as long as I'm heading in that direction anyway I thought
>I'd ask if anyone had any experience or recommendations in this
>direction. I want to optimize for portability first. This is just a
>backup plan, so I don't want to shlep around a lot of extra weight that
>I'm likely never going to use. Beyond that I'm curious about two
>things: 1) what's the cheapest portable AI solution out there, and 2)
>what can I get that's still portable if price is no object. XM weather?
>Portable stormscope? Electronic approach plates? The kitchen sink? (I
>suppose a portable autopilot is too much to ask :-)
>
>Thanks,
>rg
>
>

In article om>,
"Cheetah236" > wrote:

> > 1) what's the cheapest portable AI solution out there, and 2)
> > what can I get that's still portable if price is no object. XM
> weather?
> > Portable stormscope? Electronic approach plates? The kitchen sink?
> (I
> > suppose a portable autopilot is too much to ask :-)
> >
> > Thanks,
> > rg
>
> A couple of thoughts:
>
> 1. If it's not on line when your primary attitude indicators/turn
> coordinators fail in IMC, you'll probably die while digging through
> your flight bag looking for it,

Yep, I figure I'll set it up whenever I'm going into hard IMC.

> 2. Control Vision makes AnyWhereMap moving map software for Pocket PC
> PDA's and has an AI option available for it. This takes care of the
> portable GPS, too. About $2200 complete with nice PDA.
> http://www.anywheremap.com/detail.aspx?ID=111

This looks like just what I'm looking for. Thanks!

rg

On 2005-03-27, Ron Garret > wrote:
>
> http://www.pcflightsystems.com/egyro.html
>
> It's $500. Is that a reasonable price?

That's the one I'm thinking of. I can't tell you if the price is right,
only that I think it's a great idea but I still don't have one. :)

I toyed with the idea of making something like that (turn only, no pitch)
in kit form. The basic idea is really very simple with the solid state
gyros that are available now. About the only complexity is temperature
compensation. I just made the project too complicated by trying to
include a DG-like reference which requires far, far higher precision
than just a TC display.

--
Ben Jackson
>
http://www.ben.com/

In article >,
Ben Jackson > wrote:

> On 2005-03-27, Ron Garret > wrote:
> >
> > http://www.pcflightsystems.com/egyro.html
> >
> > It's $500. Is that a reasonable price?
>
> That's the one I'm thinking of. I can't tell you if the price is right,
> only that I think it's a great idea but I still don't have one. :)
>
> I toyed with the idea of making something like that (turn only, no pitch)
> in kit form. The basic idea is really very simple with the solid state
> gyros that are available now. About the only complexity is temperature
> compensation. I just made the project too complicated by trying to
> include a DG-like reference which requires far, far higher precision
> than just a TC display.

Yeah, any time you start integrating things get hairy. But if all you
care about is keeping the wings level then maybe all you need is one of
those cheap rate gyros they use in model helicopters and a couple of
LEDs. On the one hand, betting your life on a part made for RC models
seems like a foolish thing to do, but on the other hand, this is just a
backup in case the entire electrical system on a dual-redundant plane
craps out.

Might be worth getting a model gyro just to play around with. Hm, where
did I put that soldering iron?

rg

I frankly think that the best solution would be a panel mounted GPS
with battery backup. I have practiced under the hood and I can keep my
plane level with just my IFR GPS when in Track Up mode, the line moves
right and left with the plane, keep the line straight up and the plane
is not turning. Display the altitude and you can keep a rough pitch
also. Needs to be panel mounted so it is always there and ready. It
doesn't have to be one of the panel mount IFR GPS's, you could fashion
a panel mount for a handheld. But the key is to have it on, on track
and ready. If you get an electrical failure in IMC you aren't going to
be able to set anything up. ALL you attention will be needed keeping
the plane wings level.

Doug wrote:
> I frankly think that the best solution would be a panel mounted GPS
> with battery backup. I have practiced under the hood and I can keep my
> plane level with just my IFR GPS when in Track Up mode, the line moves
> right and left with the plane, keep the line straight up and the plane
> is not turning. Display the altitude and you can keep a rough pitch
> also. Needs to be panel mounted so it is always there and ready. It
> doesn't have to be one of the panel mount IFR GPS's, you could fashion
> a panel mount for a handheld. But the key is to have it on, on track
> and ready. If you get an electrical failure in IMC you aren't going to
> be able to set anything up. ALL you attention will be needed keeping
> the plane wings level.

Before you decide this works, if you haven't yet done so, I would
suggest you try it in dark night conditions under a hood. I do not think
daytime hood work adequately simulates the difficulty of keeping a plane
upright in IMC -- the movement of shadows within the cockpit is very
helpful in noticing that the plane is rolling.

Also, if you have a total electrical failure, you are likely to start
rolling and turning before it occurs to you to switch your scan to the
GPS. By then the track will no longer be straight up, and getting back
to the track line will be difficult even if once on that track you find
it possible to hold the track.

--
David Rind

Seems http://www.hangarb17.com/pebin?products.jsp
has pretty good prices for what you want.

Ron Garret wrote:


> This looks like just what I'm looking for. Thanks!

Each time I look at this, I find it a little more tempting. Perhaps it's
that I keep noticing new things. This time, I just noticed that the AI
"pops up" upon entry to an unusual attitude. That's a nice warning
mechanism in case one fails to note the AI's failure.

- Andrew

The HSI display on aviation grade GPS units can be used for an
emergency IFR panel. My Garmin Pilot III has internal batteries that
will last several hours (if fresh). The only drawback is that all data
is ground tracked based. The effect of this is that sensitivities will
depend upon wind speed, but this is manageable (don't be very agressive
on the controls).

For any backup to be effective, it must be in the scan at all times.
Don't think of it as backup, think of it as redundancy. The GPS is on,
the pilot is monitoring it. It is in the scan at all times. If there is
a disagreement in instruments, the pilot must decide which ones are
correct and which ones are incorrect and take appropriate action. All
done smoothly and within the flow. Any one system can fail, and the
pilot can maintain control of the plane. The likelyhood of two systems
failing at the same time is small, MUCH smaller than 1/2 the likelyhood
of one system failing if the systems are designed to be indpendent.

Doug > wrote:
>For any backup to be effective, it must be in the scan at all times.

Indeed. I flew with somebody recently in his own airplane. Very
nicely equipped, with a 2nd (electric) AI mounted just to the right of
the altimeter, so it should have been in his scan. I was also blessed
with a whole array of pullable circuit breakers in front of me, which
I decided to take advantage of :-)

At one point, I pulled the breaker on the AI. I saw the red flag
immediately pop out, but he didn't notice it for about 10 minutes.
Later in the flight, I covered up his DG (HSI, really) and we did some
partial panel work. What I didn't tell him was that I had also pulled
the breaker on the TC (again, with a instant red flag on the
instrument face). He didn't notice that either.

Some airplanes have radar that can shows the horizon. In a pinch, you
could keep the plane level with radar. Pitch can be maintained with
airspeed or groundspeed, with some caveats. In level flight, constant
heading, the wind doesn't change much. Monitor your GS, get iced pitot
tube and loose airspeed indicator, you just maintain your same GS as
you had before the ice, and you are good to go.

I found Garmin 196's panel page good enough for emergency flying. I
tried it once in IMC (with all my panel working, of course!) and it
seems to work pretty well. The most important instrument I think,
during straight and level or shallow turns, is a good heading
reference. GPS gives you that. (Yes I know it's not exactly heading
but a ground track) 196 also gives a GPS derived turn rate indicator
that looks like a TC. It has a little lag but it doesn't lag any more
than the T&B. Combined with the GPS heading reference it's good enough
to keep the wings level and on an accurate heading.

Flying the 196's panel page is a lot easier than partial panel with a
turn needle and a wet compass, I can at least tell you that! If I ever
lose all my panel I won't sweat shooting an approach with it if that's
the only option I have.

I leave my 196 on the panel page everytime I'm in IMC.

Ron Garret wrote:
> Howdy,
>
> I fly a Cirrus SR22, an all-electric plane. It has dual-redundant
power
> busses, which makes total electrical failure unlikely, but if it does

> happen in IMC it can really ruin your day, so I'm thinking about a
> backup plan. Obviously a portable GPS and Comm unit are first on the

> priority list, but I'd also like to get a portable AI, since it's
really
> hard to keep the wings level with just a GPS. Most of the portable
AIs
> seem to be part of a complete EFB solution about which I know very
> little, but as long as I'm heading in that direction anyway I thought

> I'd ask if anyone had any experience or recommendations in this
> direction. I want to optimize for portability first. This is just a

> backup plan, so I don't want to shlep around a lot of extra weight
that
> I'm likely never going to use. Beyond that I'm curious about two
> things: 1) what's the cheapest portable AI solution out there, and
2)
> what can I get that's still portable if price is no object. XM
weather?
> Portable stormscope? Electronic approach plates? The kitchen sink?
(I
> suppose a portable autopilot is too much to ask :-)
>
> Thanks,
> rg

M wrote:
> I found Garmin 196's panel page good enough for emergency flying. I
> tried it once in IMC (with all my panel working, of course!) and it
> seems to work pretty well. The most important instrument I think,
> during straight and level or shallow turns, is a good heading
> reference. GPS gives you that. (Yes I know it's not exactly heading
> but a ground track) 196 also gives a GPS derived turn rate indicator
> that looks like a TC. It has a little lag but it doesn't lag any more
> than the T&B. Combined with the GPS heading reference it's good enough
> to keep the wings level and on an accurate heading.
>
> Flying the 196's panel page is a lot easier than partial panel with a
> turn needle and a wet compass, I can at least tell you that! If I ever
> lose all my panel I won't sweat shooting an approach with it if that's
> the only option I have.

Are you flying a Cirrus? slick retractable? DGB

"M" > wrote in message oups.com...
>
> I found Garmin 196's panel page good enough for emergency flying. I
> tried it once in IMC (with all my panel working, of course!) and it
> seems to work pretty well. The most important instrument I think,
> during straight and level or shallow turns, is a good heading
> reference. GPS gives you that. (Yes I know it's not exactly heading
> but a ground track) 196 also gives a GPS derived turn rate indicator
> that looks like a TC. It has a little lag but it doesn't lag any more
> than the T&B. Combined with the GPS heading reference it's good enough
> to keep the wings level and on an accurate heading.
>
> Flying the 196's panel page is a lot easier than partial panel with a
> turn needle and a wet compass, I can at least tell you that! If I ever
> lose all my panel I won't sweat shooting an approach with it if that's
> the only option I have.
>
> I leave my 196 on the panel page everytime I'm in IMC.
>

I haven't done that much experimentation with that, but what I have done has led me to conclude that the
success of it would vary widely depending [inversely] on the level of turbulence. If it's smooth just about
anything will work--compass, adf, gps, etc-- but if its fairly bumpy none of them will work very will keeping
you right side up. My C210 may not be as slick as a Bonanza or Mooney, but it's still not very stable in roll.

Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

> I fly a Cirrus SR22, an all-electric plane. It has dual-redundant power
> busses, which makes total electrical failure unlikely, but if it does
> happen in IMC it can really ruin your day, so I'm thinking about a
> backup plan.

You've got two alternators and two batteries wired together in a way that
can withstand multiple failures and still keep essential electrics going for
an hour. You've already got the backup you need. Any more toys is just
going to be a distraction.

Sometimes I think you Cirrus guys have more money than brains.

In article >,
"Oscar" > wrote:

> > I fly a Cirrus SR22, an all-electric plane. It has dual-redundant power
> > busses, which makes total electrical failure unlikely, but if it does
> > happen in IMC it can really ruin your day, so I'm thinking about a
> > backup plan.
>
> You've got two alternators and two batteries wired together in a way that
> can withstand multiple failures and still keep essential electrics going for
> an hour. You've already got the backup you need. Any more toys is just
> going to be a distraction.

Unfortunately, there are some common mode failures that can cause a
total electrical failure in a Cirrus, notably a failure of the MCU, or
the essential-bus side of the isolation diode shorting to ground. Both
of these could happen if, for example, water got into the MCU. This
(water in the MCU, not TEF) has actually happened in the SR22 that I
fly, at least apparently. After one of the recent winter storms here in
Socal the plane was grounded because of unusually high discharge rates
from both alternators. The problem went away when the plane dried out
and could not be reproduced. This is what motivated me to start
exploring portable backup options. IMC tends to produce a wet airplane.

> Sometimes I think you Cirrus guys have more money than brains.

I think that could be said about pilots in general.

rg